Author Topic: NoFap debunked?  (Read 12192 times)

TikTak

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NoFap debunked?
« on: March 03, 2013, 11:30:11 PM »

  I don't want to ruin NoFap as it may have helped peoples lives but I believe that you guys are entitled to a second opinion. Take the following information on face value, I do not know if its true or a very good troll but after reading this I'm having second thoughts on the whole NoFap. Anyway read with caution.

http://s4.postimage.org/tbk9mlje5/1362354424212.png


« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 11:40:10 PM by TikTak »

gameover

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2013, 11:35:32 PM »
Why even post this its obviously a troll.

Source: Anonymous... Really? Your going to post something like that with the source of anonymous.

How do you explain all the guys who could not get hard at all with severe ED returning to good erectile health when removing only 1 thing. Internet Porn.

TikTak

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2013, 11:39:52 PM »
I'm trying to find the source right now. It may be fake.

Edit:
found the source
http://www.revscene.net/forums/669003-no-fap-challenge-20.html


« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 11:45:36 PM by TikTak »

gameover

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2013, 11:47:58 PM »
Thats not the source...

"From my psychology professor who specialises in psychology of sexuality and remains to be anonymous."

TikTak

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2013, 11:51:02 PM »
well the source of the image anyways. Today I found it floating around the internet. so ya I don't know maybe for the fact its too well written makes it fake.

Anon_Fapper

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 12:07:45 AM »
Thats not the source...

"From my psychology professor who specialises in psychology of sexuality and remains to be anonymous."

Yea, I found that a little curious. Not sure what benefit anonymity confers there.

The whole post in question boils down to one point, IMO:

1) There's little explicit scientific evidence supporting the benefits of no-PMO

Of course, this is recognized by people, which is why the response usually is: Ok, then just try no-PMO yourself and see what happens. I'm don't know why this is such a controversial concept; plenty of people have tried it and reported pretty positive side effects. If you try it and notice nothing changed, more power to you. I'm not sure where the dogged opposition to no-PMO comes from for some people - it isn't like refraining from watching porn is going to cause harm to anyone. In fact, the post in question actually references a number of positive outcomes from no-PMO that are outside the possible addiction pathways.

John007

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 12:34:21 AM »
The psychology professor is not mentioned so we don't know who exactly wrote that .But Gary your thoughts?

DGP

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 12:36:25 AM »
Well I look at it this way. I could get a full erection while masturbating to porn, as long as I kept up the constant novelty. I tried to have sex with a girl twice and could barely get hard at all. Then, after thinking that porn was the issue, as I knew I could keep an erection with it, I tried to masturbate without porn a few days later. Again, without porn, I could not even get a better than half erection. That for me, threw performance anxiety out the window.

Six months later I found YBOP, and with only 70 or so days off porn, I was then easily able to achieve and sustain a full erection with only minimal touch and not the slightest bit of fantasization.

But anyway, I guess I'm crazy for thinking that porn is the issue.



« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 12:41:45 AM by DGP »

monte_cristo

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2013, 01:26:59 AM »
I see a red flag with the writer dropping the phrase "ethically produced" several times. Like we're supposed to understand what he means and as if there's some actual distinction. I'm wondering if the whole thing is put together to be a plug for the one porn site he name drops 2/3 of the way in. It's like saying hey, since you must be feeling so miserable and sex-negative and you're going to relapse anyway, here's a great "ethical" site you should check out..

I actually agree with those things in the post that are based in facts. Some things are just :o...I think pretty much anyone here with a serious problem knows it's a total lie to say "escalation is a myth".

I think most of us have other personal problems, to various degrees, being human and all. If you're addicted to porn, it's quite possible a 3 month reboot will do you a hell of a lot more good than 3 months of therapy or trying to "fix your underlying issues". I could go on but you get the point.

John007

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 06:55:39 AM »
I see a red flag with the writer dropping the phrase "ethically produced" several times. Like we're supposed to understand what he means and as if there's some actual distinction. I'm wondering if the whole thing is put together to be a plug for the one porn site he name drops 2/3 of the way in. It's like saying hey, since you must be feeling so miserable and sex-negative and you're going to relapse anyway, here's a great "ethical" site you should check out..

I actually agree with those things in the post that are based in facts. Some things are just :o...I think pretty much anyone here with a serious problem knows it's a total lie to say "escalation is a myth".

I think most of us have other personal problems, to various degrees, being human and all. If you're addicted to porn, it's quite possible a 3 month reboot will do you a hell of a lot more good than 3 months of therapy or trying to "fix your underlying issues". I could go on but you get the point.
You should because I don't know what to believe any more ,although these days I ve been very happy it could be a hallo effect what is going on with me or the other guys,the only thing that is very strange(which I read it somewhere from another who quit porn) for me at least, is that I can sleep  6 hours and I feel great which never happened in my life

empshockwave

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 07:10:37 AM »
As I've said before and again, I don't fully agree with Gary's theories, I really admire what he's doing though. I have to admit you have to assess someone on the basis of what they are saying and not who they are.

In this case whoever this anonymous person is, he is making some valid points. Then again it's very low of him to go and attack Gary and his partner about their 'lack of formation', sure I can see why he would do that but I still think it's a bit mean.

Anyway in one of the threads we get on here which very often question's ybop, I voiced my concerns that there is no way of distinguishing between sexual exhaustion (from excessive masturbation) and the effects of porn from an ED perspective that is. Very often they go hand in hand, so it's hard to know which one is really responsible for the ED part (this aspect interests me the most). He seems to emphasise the sexual exhaustion aspect.

Sure the rebooters out there may seem like proof but hang on they've also addressed the sexual exhaustion issue, by not orgasming for so long, so that argument does not really work. Until there is a proper control group of people keeping the same masturbation habits without porn and the other with porn and see whether improvement really happens.

I don't agree with the guy's argument that porn addiction is not existent, that sounds silly.

In brief while I do believe porn has an impact on the brain and behaviour, I believe that at least some of the ED reported are mainly a problem of sexual exhaustion than desensitisation. That's not saying that PIED does not exist...

Gary Wilson

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 07:27:05 AM »
Quote
I don't fully agree with Gary's theories,

People say this, but I never understand what my theories are, and how they differ form standard addiction neuroscience. Can you expand?


Jackinthebox

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2013, 07:45:33 AM »
A lot of people have experienced great benefits abstaining from porn and masturbation for a couple of months, for me that's enough to at least give it a try. It's not like porn is such a big deal anyway, or at least I don't want it to be a big part of my life. I don't know anything about brain chemistry but it seems to me through common sense that if you watch a lot of sex you will eventually get bored with it etc, just like with everything else.

hogus

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2013, 07:48:35 AM »
To be completely fair, a lot has happened since whenever that was written. There is a consensus on behavioural addictions for example.

And that guy goes on about how there's no peer reviewed evidence, and then tries to pass off one of his own arguments as valid even though it's not peer reviewed but "seems sound". Isn't that exactly the acceptance process of Gary's theories that we've gone through after reading YBOP? How are these supposedly really intelligent people not aware of what they're saying?!

In general he just doesn't consider the cases where he doesn't have a sound argument. e.g. addiction without an underlying cause (just from super-stimulation). His main argument against PIED is the existence of "better" explanations negates the possibility of Gary's. Fair enough on testosterone but as it's unspecified and he's been going on about YBOP, the direct implication is that YBOP should be discredited on this topic.

Funny thing is, his analogy at the end perfectly supports YBOP.
My Journal

I don't really reboot anymore but try to avoid MO.

fugu

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2013, 08:16:22 AM »
This is totally useless without it coming from a qualified source....
1.5 years without PMO - journal below!
http://www.yourbrainrebalanced.com/index.php?topic=5043.0

Check out the YourBrainRebalanced Radio Show! http://www.yourbrainrebalanced.com/index.php?topic=21259.0

TheUnderdog

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2013, 08:23:34 AM »
FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

When people escalate their porn use and can only get aroused with certain type of scenes then that is proof enough that this addiction causes desensitization and significant changes in the brain.

If I can only get aroused with scenes of insanely hot and slutty girls in lingerie, what do you think is going to happen when I find myself naked with an average girl who's body and attitude isn't anywhere near that of a pornstar?

Have you actually been in that situation?

Have you actually rebooted and tested the results?

And don't even get me started on guys who are hooked on specific fetishes such as femdom, humiliation, shemale, cumshots, jerk off instructions, etc. They are destroying their sex lives.

FUCK THIS THREAD.
I usually don't reply to private messages unless they are urgent or related to technical issues (such as deleting a thread, moving a journal, banning a spammer, etc).

Gary Wilson

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2013, 08:26:17 AM »
Quote
Funny thing is, his analogy at the end perfectly supports YBOP.
Yes I noticed that too. The anonymous professor post is old news for us.

We are almost certain of who this sexologist is, and we know why he is after YBOP. His research and academic reputation depend on the following:

1) Sexual tastes are innate and cannot change. In other words our articles about morphing sexual tastes and guys escalating to genres they say don't match their innate tastes threatens his life's work
2) porn addiction does not exist
3) porn-induced ED does not exist

So you can see he is quite upset with us, and Marnia has battled with him on the academic list-serve trying to explain what you guys have experienced and have healed.

WARNING: CUT AND PASTE FROM A BACK & FOR THE ABOUT THIS POST (ps - I could add several more cut & pastes, and new studies about deltafosb, internet addiction studies with porn and 2 brain studies on porn....but enough)



Quote
I read an article and subsequent discussion that occurred on here a month or two ago that shook my faith in YBOP's principles to the core and I got very angry as it had seemed like the light at the end of a long, dark and depressing tunnel.

That was a very clever spin job (I address this below) - so clever that it still has you believing the lies - such as YBOP doesn't depend upon experts.

One single article refutes most of what the anonymous sexologist implied in his "student's" spin job. Toss Your Textbooks: Docs Redefine Sexual Behavior Addictions http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/node/645

The American Society of Addiction Medicine is not anonymous, and is packed with some of the top neuroscientists in the world: people who actually study addiction. Not an anonymous sexologist with an agenda, who is afraid to put his name to his claims, and who doesn't cite a damn thing.

Really get this: ASAM totally agrees with YBOP. They mention sexual behavior addictions 12 times in their 3 paper and say it involves the same mechanisms and brain changes. Please read their 3 documents:
http://www.asam.org/advocacy/find-a-policy-statement/view-policy-statement/public-policy-statements/2011/12/15/the-definition-of-addiction

This alone refutes the what you and those on whom you rely said - that YBOP is somehow depending only on anecdotes and more important - that *the experts* don't agree with YBOP. Which experts? Addiction experts *do* agree with YBOP. Did you know that ASAM contains the top addiction researchers in the world? Please Google Nora Volkow - she is former ASAM board member, and current member, who helped draft the new definition - along with the 3,000 other members (MDs and researchers.)

Notice how the sexologist - who is not an expert in addiction - left this out.

_____________________________________

You and others need to understand that there are two distinct groups of researchers at odds.

1) Addiction researchers who study the brain and have 40 years and thousands of studies (animal and humans) all pointing to the fact that all addictions involve the same mechanisms and brain changes. No studies have refuted this. See ASAM, please.

This translates into, "If you have the signs symptoms, and behaviors associated with addiction - you have a specific constellation of brain changes." No studies have refuted that statement.

2) Sexologists who have little or no training in brain science and NO training in addiction neuroscience. They are fighting tooth and nail to prevent the recognition of porn addiction. Since they have been advocating porn use and saying that there's no such thing as too much - their reputations are at stake.

The guy you relied on didn't cite one study, because he doesn't have any. He and his colleagues are afraid. So much so that they spend precious time and energy anonymously attacking obscure people and websites. Don't you find that a bit odd?
__________________________________

Incidentally, there is a reason why this anonymous sexologist is going after YBOP. His academic reputation depends upon it. His life's work is built upon the dubious concept that brains are NOT plastic. That sexual "tastes" cannot change. "You are what you are long before puberty, and your porn use only 'uncovers' that, no matter how bizarre your tastes become as you escalate." Since addicts escalate for an entirely different reason (desensitization), he's determined to deflect discussions of the possibility that addiction is at work.

Specifically - YBOP has written several articles describing morphing sexual tastes (not orientation changes) - and pointed out that often these "tastes" reverse themselves during a rebooting period. Is Internet porn making male sexuality more plastic? http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/can-you-trust-your-johnson

If guys tastes change through Internet porn use - then his research and reputation are threatened.
______________________________________________

To sum it all up:

1) That particular YBOP detractor has stated that porn addiction does not exist.

2) He does not believe that continued porn use, over time, can alter sexual tastes, causing them to morph into genres that don't match one's sexual orientation. You should take into account the fact that his current research depends on upholding this myth that porn can't alter tastes. KEY POINT - If it turns out that porn alters tastes, his years of "research" will be refuted or called into question. That is why he went after Nofap & YBOP

3) He has stated that porn-induced ED is a myth.

4) He stated that all neuroplasticity is irrelevant because "the brain changes all the time." Which is like saying all cell division is the same (think cancer).

5) He conveniently ignored 40 years of addiction research in animals and humans, which has uncovered very specific neuroplastic changes shared by ALL addiction. He doesn't know enough about it apparently to understand that it guts his entire argument.

6) He lied in the post when he said that YBOP/TGPE depended only on animal research. In fact, 18 brain studies on internet addicts (again, not videogamers...those are other studies) have shown all the same fundamental addiction-related changes as seen in drug addicts. Ten studies are cited in this article: Recent Internet Addiction Brain Studies Include Porn
http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/node/858

Moreover two of the brain studies followed recovering addicts and saw a *reversal* of addiction-related brain changes. Causation is becoming unmistakeable, and yet this guy ignores the unwelcome research.

7) He conveniently left out the opinion of the American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM), which released their sweeping new definition of addiction last August. The organization members are not just doctors, but also researchers who provide the hard data. ASAM unequivocally stated that all addictions involve the same basic mechanisms and resulting brain changes. In their new definition they stated that *sexual behavior addictions* exist. In fact, ASAM set aside 3 FAQ's just for sexual behavior addictions.

Please see this article, the quotes, and links to ASAM's new definition of addiction. Toss Your Textbooks: Docs Redefine Sexual Behavior Addictions http://yourbrainonporn.com/toss-your-textbooks-docs-redefine-sexual-behavior-addictions

8 ) He left out the very recent decision by the DSM-5 to create a "behavioral addiction" section in the upcoming newly revised DSM-5.
See - The D.S.M. Gets Addiction Right  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/opinion/the-dsm-gets-addiction-right.html?_r=2

9) He suggested that behavioral addictions involve different mechanisms than drug addictions. This is false, as chronic overstimulation of the reward circuit leads to accumulation of deltaFosb, which activates and suppresses a very specific set of genes, leading to the brain changes found in all addictions.

Please see these article and follow all the links - Porn, Pseudoscience and ΔFosB http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/node/985

TL;DR: The sexologist has no training in addiction neurobiology; doesn't believe in behavioral addictions, including porn addiction; fervently denies morphing of sexual tastes and dismisses all evidence to the contrary; fervently denies porn-induced ED; is at odds with ASAM's new definition of addiction, and the new DSM-5; doesn't know the basic mechanisms and brain changes that occur in ALL addictions; and is attempting to protect his own research conclusions, which rest on the premise that sexual tastes are immutable. Skepticism is healthy, but spin is not refutation. Choose your sources carefully, and be slow to buy into spin.


END OF CUT & PASTE. Guess what I'm going to today? Keep working on my new presentation on the adolescent brain and Internet porn, which heavily emphasizes sexual condition and morphing sexual tastes. The sexologist is really going to like it - guaranteed.


« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 09:04:58 AM by Gary Wilson »

RoadToReality

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2013, 10:33:34 AM »

Articles that attack YBOP really piss me off.

Not because they disagree with YBOP.
Not because they suggest alternative causes of our problems.

But because they deny we exist. 1000s and 1000s of people. When they talk about performance anxiety, sexual exhaustion etc etc. I cannot get any sort of erection, find it almost impossible to be properly attracted to a girl in real life. I have only masturbated or watched porn once in the last 40 days, and before that 15 days, 15days and 26days.

JUST ACKNOWLEDGE I FUCKING EXIST. THE PROBLEM THEY DESCRIBE MEN HAVING IS NOT ME!!!! AND IT IS NOT MOST PEOPLE ON HERE!!!!!

TikTak

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2013, 04:56:35 PM »
Thanks for clearing things up Gary, I feel better now that all my failed attempts weren't for nothing. I was about to go on a massive binge if it wasn't for you.

Mind Revolution

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2013, 05:00:58 PM »
Probably written by someone hired by the BILLION+ dollar porn industry to try to dissuade people from doing nofap. This movement is cutting into their profits so I'm sure they will be using more and more guerrilla tactics such as this. It's no different than people writing fake reviews on Amazon or professional posters trying to sway popular opinion by writing bias comments on news stories.


« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 05:07:03 PM by Mind Revolution »


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Gary Wilson

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2013, 05:18:26 PM »
Quote
Thanks for clearing things up Gary, I feel better now that all my failed attempts weren't for nothing. I was about to go on a massive binge if it wasn't for you.

I would like to understand this - What does it matter what I say, or what the anonymous professor says? Why should either of us have any effect on your porn habits? In other words, aren't you eliminating porn for yourself, for personal reasons?

Lots of good comments here, but I have always reacted like RoadToReality - How dare anyone tell you guys what you are experiencing (and why) - whether it be ED, DE, low libido, uncontrolled porn use, morphing sexual tastes, or anything else you don't particularly care for.

There no "experts" in the effects of high speed internet porn. It has only existed for 10 years. No one has a PhD in "the effects of high speed internet porn". You guys are the experts. Do your own experiments and decide for yourself. You have to - because no one is conducting a study were porn use is eliminated for several months.

No Fap Till Brooklyn

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2013, 06:50:11 PM »
Very well put, Gary. Personally, I am in academia and I hate dicks who act like anybody without a PhD in front of their name is a fraud. Also, many of the people doing Nofap and abstaining from pornography (NOT for religious reasons) are also highly educated. For example, in the 25+ forum, Piedpiper is a medical doctor and he is also running a journal.

As Gary stated, there is no right or wrong. Just experiment for yourself and see what the effects are. Oh, and if those effects happen to be all due to some placebo or because you are exercising self-control (and in fact has nothing to do with pornography), who the hell cares? If your quality of life is improving because you have quit porn, take it and run with it. In the absence of controlled scientific experiments, our testimonials and personal experiments are the only sources of information on this subject. Sadly we may never know to what extent the placebo effect is playing a role in improving our quality of life when abstaining from porn. But I for one am not complaining and I think Gary for helping me to gain more control over my own life.

NoFap

Lucky11222

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2013, 07:08:08 PM »
I don't understand what the debate is about. There really isn't anything to debate in my view...

Let me just say: Gary himself does not have proof of anything from his own experience (unless I'm missing something..). He's simply building awareness. If Gary had just presented a theory, I might have listened or I might have not listened. But Gary opened up a discussion of actual sufferers. He didn't make up stories, but simply gave a voice to the sufferers who quit PMO. And, personally, that's all I needed to begin exploration. Gary on his own is just as reliable (or unreliable) as that "anonymous professor" because, again, neither one have experienced PMO addiction but Gary is not claiming to know what the problem is with each individual.
Anyone can talk about it and throw theories, but I wouldn't listen to the Einstein of PIED unless he had the same addiction as I have. 

Also, no one claimed that stopping PMO will cure ED 100% of the time (I certainly never thought that, because each individual case is different) but it's certainly working for quite a few, and that's good enough for me to give this a shot :)

The big question is: Is quitting PMO benefiting you? So far, I have not read a single journal entry that read: "Ever since I quit PMO, my life has just gone down the drain. I am less productive than with PMO and there is no hope for me in the future because I stopped fapping."

There is an accepted notion about alcoholism that goes something like this: "If you'd like have a drink after work, that's preference. If you need to have a drink after work, that's alcoholism."
Well, I needed PMO after work, before work, during work and every time in between. If you look me in the eye and tell me I was not addicted or affected, I'd just laugh and say you're crazy.

Even if I were to grant this insane premise that there are no libido effects from porn, I would never go back to it because I know first hand what it does to my body and my mind, and that's what really matters to me.

And saying that porn is natural. I say: "So is cyanide." :)


« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 07:25:50 PM by Lucky11222 »

TylerDurden

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2013, 07:23:46 PM »
FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

When people escalate their porn use and can only get aroused with certain type of scenes then that is proof enough that this addiction causes desensitization and significant changes in the brain.

If I can only get aroused with scenes of insanely hot and slutty girls in lingerie, what do you think is going to happen when I find myself naked with an average girl who's body and attitude isn't anywhere near that of a pornstar?

Have you actually been in that situation?

Have you actually rebooted and tested the results?

And don't even get me started on guys who are hooked on specific fetishes such as femdom, humiliation, shemale, cumshots, jerk off instructions, etc. They are destroying their sex lives.

FUCK THIS THREAD.



QFT !!


John007

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Re: NoFap debunked?
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2013, 01:09:31 AM »
There are other guys who say that pornography is bad in general http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_effects_of_pornography

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3050060/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11252991

other links are here in this video

Anyway I think Gary should be prepared for this kind of "attacks", the more widespread the message is of how much bad things pornography can do the more the pornography companies will try to prove that he is wrong ,I mean they make billions from porn its not going to be easy